布克哈德访谈录(上) | Hana Iverson 对话 Buckhard von Harder

艺术·生活·新知

编者按：

这段采访开始于2018年1月。正值冬天，汉娜?艾佛森 Hana Iverson，这位费城大学新媒体艺术教授， 通过电子邮件的形式，与布克哈德开始了历时两个月的采访。共同承载着犹太记忆的两人，在一来一往的邮件中，巨细靡遗地讨论了此次布克哈德于在3画廊的个展“迂回与距离”，有关展览主旨的诞生、概念的由来、空间体验等等。以致这次访谈本身就是一次“迂回”。而从精神性的角度，这次访谈展露出布克哈德跨越东方思考与西方哲学的兼容思想，而不仅仅停留在所谓的“个人历史、德国历史”的表面。在不断的探索中，他走过弯路，但这些弯路却是无比重要的，是指引性的，这也正是“迂回”在实践中的意义。

展览入口

Kali – Goddess of Time, Creation and Destruction 《时间、创造与毁灭之女神 ——卡丽》 220 x 185 cm C-Print 彩色打印 1987 5+2AP

注：这是一个图腾，一边代表失去，一边代表给予。

Dashaswamedh Ghat，Varanasi 《恒河天葬》 C-Print 1987

注：这件拍摄于印度的作品作为展览开端，以生死谈人的存在。

Interview:

Burkhard von Harder with Hana Iverson 

January – March 2018

Hana: What is the meaning of the title of the show, Detour+Distance?

Burkhard: I had an idea about ‘homecoming’ that I was tossing around, but that began to shift when I met with Dan Qinq, my curator. The gallery offered me their entire space, which is quite vast. Thinking about the exhibition space really started to shape the range of what I could express. About the same time, I came across this book by Francois Julien, Detour and Access, which argued for a new view of philosophy, formed by looking at the Chinese perspective towards Western thought. So the name Detourcame about. I liked the geographic and philosophic connotations associated with that idea, but felt that something was missing. Since the exhibition’s location is in China, which to someone from Europe or the USA is fairly remote, I added the word ‘distance’. So, Detour+Distance became the title of the show.

The concept of the show is based on two ideas -- first, of veering ‘off-course’ by looking at the German past. It was tough to do, but I found it was a necessity before I could move forward. The second idea took shape as I thought about how, at this juncture, I am reconnecting to the spiritual side of my life, renewed by traveling once again, to the East.

H: What shaped your thinking about the work you have brought together for this exhibition?

B: I wanted the exhibition to include my early interest in mysticism. My interest in spirituality began in High School, where I first felt drawn to ideas of Eastern thought. Hermann Hesse’s novel, Siddhartha, left a deep impression on me, as did C. G. Jung inMan and his Symbols and Memories, Dreams, Reflections. These books emphasized the ‘journey’ within, looking for the key within oneself. I never considered myself a hippie, but as part of that generation, I found myself traveling to India via the Silk Road route known as Hippie Trail.

Entering the exhibition space, the first image the viewer encounters is a large photograph of a person dressed to represent Kali, the Hindu goddess of ‘time, creation and destruction.’ I took this photograph in Benares in 1987. The impersonator is a Hijra, who belongs to the caste of the Dalits or the ‘Untouchables’ (1), which adds another dimension to the portrait.

The people whom I knew or met along the way on that first trip – who were attracted to India – went to the East in search of what I call ‘awareness shock,’ which are moments of a heightened sense of life. This happened to me in Varanasi, a place that I have returned to several times since then, trying to delve more deeply into what occurred in that initial experience. The last time I went to India was 1990, before I returned this year when my work was included in the 2018 India Art Fair.

H: You mentioned that the exhibition started off with the idea of ‘homecoming’ but then evolved further - could you explain that?

B: I found a text fragment from Homecoming by Franz Kafka (1920) that I paired with seven of my staged photographs from an older series, Home Coming (2002). It worked quite well in relation to them, since the text and the images share a similar spirit. The story of Homecoming highlights the specter of the father, and the images address this same feeling of separation. I was drawn to the fact that the writing is from a German- Jewish point of view. My photographs speak from the German perspective – but they go beyond the boundaries of a family story by creating a larger narrative. Four of those seven images are in the show, and some phrases from the text are placed on the wall. I created those earlier photos during the period of time when I was living in New York City and I met you, Hana. Through you, I gained an intimate entry to Jewish culture. As well, your highly eclectic personal library fascinated me, with books like Simon Schama’sLandscape and Memory, which provided a closer understanding of Jewish cultural history. Unfortunately, this inspired me to face the distressing aspects of my own country’s history in the 20th Century. I felt compelled to address Germany’s complex and difficult past on a personal level, in order to come to terms with what were, in my world, ‘sleeping demons.’ This undertaking has proven to be an almost impossible task. The Home Coming photographs are part of a larger series now because the project has expanded over the years, but the photos included in the exhibition are from the years 1984 to 2004.

Recently, my work is driven more though my cinematic imagination, whether expressed through video or installations such as the experimentation with animated film scrolls, or in condensed narrative within photography such as the image,GerMANIC Trek (2003/18), all of which are included in the show.

H: What does the viewer experience in the exhibition?

B: On the first floor are two wall cabinets, connected by a long corridor. In the first are seven large-scale photographs: three of the seven pictures from the Home Coming series, then a large triptych called The Signing (2004), and finally the image,Change of Guards (2004). These images complete what I refer to as the ’personal history’ space of the gallery layout.

The second sequence represents the historic viewpoint. The central work is GerMANIC Trek (2003/2005). It depicts a staged re-enactment of the enormous move of European settlers into the Soviet Union initiated by Germany during WW II. The works in this cabinet jump between the time frames of war and post-war, as the next image is Via Napoli (2002). The title is a play on the way Germany has redeveloped since the Berlin Wall came down. I took that photograph in a new factory compound in Bitterfeld, Germany. Bitterfeld was famous for being the heart of the chemical industry in the former East Germany. Or, rather, it was infamous for its pollution. The area went through a dramatic transformation after reunification in 1990. The old structures were dismantled and replaced by new buildings with modern technology and design. All of a sudden, streets were named ’Via Napoli’, ’Via Milano’, ’Via Roma’ ... the emptiness of that factory location reminds one more of the alienation found in a northern Italian setting of a Michelangelo Antonioni film, rather than a small German town. After the Wall came down, Germans were trying to erase most of the Communist past by perpetuating their never-ending fantasy of Italy, while in the process of restoring their own country. My photograph Via Napoli questions this new, constructed German identity.

Finally, there is a large triptych, The Dive (1984), which visually references a transition, a cleansing... For me, it is letting go of history – mine, Germany’s – that has been an invisible weight overshadowing my emotional life.

The exhibition concludes in a small space on the upper floor where 16 monitors are arranged in a line, and the viewer can see the process of moving my art works from Germany to China. This video, Detour China - 48 hours, was made in 2015, documenting the move of all of my completed works – everything up to this point. These were mostly large-scale, framed prints that I gathered from several storage spaces in Hamburg, Germany, onto a container ship that went to Tianjin, China. This was prompted by a contract with Being 3 Gallery in Beijing, but was also a deeply personal, internal move. I rediscovered the connection to my abandoned spiritual search during the complicated effort of international shipping. In fact, the whole meaning of Detour+Distance might be most clearly expressed in that installation. I really set sail into an undefined future, which could only open up once the ‘home- work’ was completed.

H. How is the word ’detour’ different from the idea of process? Isn’t life a continual set of detours?

B. You are probably right. I am constantly involved in the process of exploration and that brings about detours. I used to feel at a loss because of this tendency to reroute, but I have learned to have trust in this process. Topics that I am researching, or experiences I encounter, develop in a certain direction and I have learned to follow what unfolds from there. It’s hard to describe this process, which is why I wanted you to do this interview, because you have known my work better than most people. Our communication triggered my determined confrontation with the wartime past. My perspective on that history is quite close, having been born in Germany in the mid- 1950s. I always considered delving into what happened in Germany during the Nazi era, a difficult calling, but a necessity in order to give form and context to whatever I was trying to achieve with my art. Researching the involvement of my family and facing this subject matter is very challenging, as well as a contradiction to my nature, as I am not socially, a confrontational personality. Yet, I felt there was no way around the topic. As an artist, I had to face these issues, in order to proceed. That is why, within the layout of the exhibition, the image of Varanasi marks the beginning of my search, and symbolically again, its end. This big, problematic “detour,” lies in between.

Lao Tzu says in the Tao Te Ching, “The path into the light seems dark, the path forward seems to go back.”

H. There are many chapters in this story and I think your family history plays a big role in explaining this journey...

B. My father was much older, in some ways more like a grandfather. He met my mother when he was already in his late 50s, and I was born when he was 61 years old. My mother was twenty-five years younger than he, so she was in her early 20s during the war. They had very different experiences during those years. My parents separated before I was born, and divorced when I was seven. My father passed away when I was nineteen, and has remained an important symbol to the family, a memory that no one wants to touch but that somehow remains bigger than life.

(To be continued)

展览空间：三层月亮空间二层

左：Portrait of a man in a mental home 精神病男人的肖像 220x180cm C-Print on Diasec 彩色打印 树脂装裱 1988 5+2AP

右：GerMANIC Trek1941 Re-enactment (2003) 1941 年日耳曼迷航 (2003年重做) 120x150cm C-Print 彩色打印 2003 5+2AP

注：二战时期犹太人被迫迁徙，想象中作为纳粹叔叔的罪感；在那黑漆的小房间里，一组淋冷水澡的孩子的惊恐；艺术家布克哈德真希望自己是一个意大利人，那个文艺复兴的家园，他的救赎之地。一个德意志精神版图。

展览空间：三层月亮空间二层 

Shock Shower 《惊恐的淋浴者》 220vx185cm C-Print 彩色打印

展览空间：教堂三层

注：该视频装置记录了布克哈德的作品从德国三个仓库杜塞尔多夫，柏林，以及家乡叙尔特岛运到汉堡港，汉堡港海运到中国天津港，再从天津港运往北京如此一个“迂回”的过程。16个屏幕组成的Vedio作品，德国的司机和中国的司机被要求在各自的卡车上安装3个Go-Pro相机，以记录各自的运输过程——他们不同的方式是否暗示了迥异的文化思维？

布克哈德?冯?哈德访谈录

访谈人：汉娜?艾弗森（Hana Iverson），纽约艺评人，作家。以下简称H

访谈对象：布克哈德?冯?哈德（Burkhard von Harder），德国艺术家、电影人。以下简称B

访谈时间：2018年1—3月

H: 这次展览的标题“迂回与距离”，有什么寓意吗？

B: 我原先犹豫过是否使用“归家”这个标题，但是当我遇到策展人丹青的时候，我的想法改变了。画廊给我提供了他们的全部空间，面积很大。思考展览的空间，也真正开始塑造我可以表达的区间。大约同一时期，我无意间看到了Francois Julien的一本讨论哲学新观点的书《迂回与接近》，它通过中国的视角看待西方的思想。这是“迂回”这一想法的由来。我喜欢它里面的地理和哲学内涵，但依旧觉得少了点什么。既然展览在中国举办，对于来自欧洲或美国的人来说非常遥远，因此我决定加上“距离”这个词。于是就有了现在的“迂回与距离”。

此展的概念基于两个想法。第一，通过观看德国的过去，扭转偏离的航向。这件事做起来很难，但我认为在继续下一步之前，这么做很有必要。第二，我试图让展览与我生命中精神性的那一面相链接，当我正为此而费思量的时候，我再次去了东方，旅行让我焕然一新，那一刻，灵感诞生了。

H: 是什么影响了你为这次展览选择作品？

B:我希望这次展览能体现我早期对神秘主义的兴趣。我对精神性的兴趣开始于高中，我第一次觉得我对东方思想如此痴迷。赫尔曼·黑塞的小说《流浪者之歌》和C·G·荣格的《人类》、《回忆·梦·思考》都给我留下了深刻的印象。这些书强调了内在的“旅程”，寻找自己内在的钥匙。我从来不认为自己是嬉皮士，但作为那代人的一员，我发现自己也通过丝绸之路(即嬉皮轨迹)前往了印度。

进入展览空间，观众第一眼看到的是一张大照片，照片上的人饰演的是印度女神卡莉，她是“时间、创造和毁灭”的女神。1987年，我在贝拿勒斯拍摄了这张照片。这个演员是一个双性人，他属于达利特种姓，或者是“贱民”（不可触碰的人），这增加了肖像的另一个维度。

在我第一次旅行途中，我认识或遇到的那些人——他们都深深被印度吸引了。到东方去寻找我所谓的“意识冲击”，是对生活的高度感知的时刻。我在瓦拉纳西就发生过这样的事，自那时起，我曾多次回到这个地方，试图更深入地探究在最初的经历中发生的事情。在今年从印度返回之前（因我的作品在2018印度艺术博览会上展览），我上次去印度是在1990年。

H: 你提到过展览一开始想以“归家”为主题，但后来又有了更进一步的拓展——你能解释一下这个过程吗?

B:当我在整理由7张老照片构成的《归家》（2002）系列作品时，我想到弗朗茨·卡夫卡(1920年)在他的小说《回家》中的一些文本片段。它们间彼此匹配产生的内部关联很好，因为这些文字和图像有种某种相似的精神。卡夫卡《回家》的故事充斥着父亲的幽灵，而我的这些照片也表达了同样分离的感觉。我被吸引还因为这样一个事实：那就是卡夫卡的写作出自一个德国犹太人的视角。我的照片也来自德国人的视角——但它们超越了家庭故事的界限，创造了更宏大的叙事。这七幅系列作品有四幅图像在本次展览中展出了，并在相应展墙上配了《回家》文本中的一些词句。

住在纽约的那段时间里，我创作了那些早期的照片。也是那时，我认识了你，汉娜。通过你，我获得了一种对犹太文化的亲密接触。同样，你丰富而高度兼容并包的个人图书馆也让我着迷，比如西蒙·沙马的那本书：《风景与记忆》，让我对犹太文化史有了更深入的了解。不幸的是，这激发了我去面对20世纪自己国家历史中令人痛苦的那一面。我觉得有必要在个人层面上解决德国复杂而困难的过去，以便与我的世界里的“沉睡的恶魔”达成妥协。这项任务已经被证明是一项几乎不可能完成的任务。如今《回家》摄影作品只是一个大的系列作品的部分，因为这个项目多年来一直在扩大，但是这次展出的照片时间跨度是从1984年到2004年。

最近，我的作品更多被我的电影想象力所驱动，通过视频或装置来表达，比如动画电影卷轴的实验，或者是在摄影作品中的浓缩叙事，如《1941日尔曼迷航》(2003/18)，所有这些都被包括在展览中。

H: 观众在展览中会体验到什么呢？

B: 在3画廊教堂空间，除了一楼高阔的展区外，两边还分别有展厅，由一条长廊相连。在第一个展厅里陈列了七张大画幅照片:3张是来自前面提到的由7幅老照片构成的《回家》系列；然后是3幅一联的大画幅《签名》(2004)系列作品，最后是1张是《守护的变迁》(2004)。这些图像完成了我所说“个人历史”空间的画廊展陈。

第二个序列代表了历史观点。其中包含一幅作品名为《1941日耳曼迷航》(2003/05)。它描绘了二战期间由德国发起的一场欧洲定居者向苏联大规模的迁徙行动。这个展厅的作品在战争和战后的时间框架之间跳跃，居后的作品是《那不勒斯街》(2002)。图片名称展现了自柏林墙倒塌以来德国重新发展的方式。这张照片是我在德国的一个新工厂里拍的。比特菲尔德作为前东德化学工业的心脏而闻名。或者，更确切地说，它因污染而臭名昭著。该地区在1990年重新统一后经历了戏剧性的转变。旧建筑被拆除，取而代之的是新建筑，现代技术和设计。突然间，街道被命名为“Via Napoli”（那不勒斯街），“Via Milano”（米兰街），“Via Roma”（罗马街）……工厂所在地的空旷让人想起了意大利北部的米开朗基罗·安东尼奥尼(MichelangeloAntonioni)电影的场景，而不是一个德国小镇。柏林墙倒塌后，德国人试图通过延续他们对意大利永无止境的幻想来抹去大部分共产主义历史，而同时重新修葺他们自己国家。《那不勒斯街》这张照片则质疑了这个新的，建构起来的德国身份。

最后，还有一组3幅一联的大画幅作品《潜水》(1984)，视觉上引用了一个过渡，一个净化…对我来说，这是对历史的抛弃——我的历史，德国的历史——那是一种无形的重量，剥夺了我的情感生活的光彩。

展览的收尾在楼上的一个小空间里，16个显示器排成一行，观众可以看到我的作品从德国运输到中国的过程。这段视频，“迂回中国 - 48小时”，是在2015年制作的，记录了我所有作品的行程——直到现在为止。这些都是我从德国汉堡的几个储存空间收集的大型的、镶有框的照片，放在一艘开往中国天津的集装箱船上。这是由于和北京在3画廊签合同所推动的，但同时也是一个非常私人的，内在的运动。在国际航运间错综复杂的努力中，我重新发现了我曾放弃了的精神寻找的联系。实际上，迂回与距离的全部含义可能在安装过程中表达得最清楚。我真的开始了一个没有定义的未来，只有当“家庭作业”完成后，它才会开启。

H：“迂回”这个词与“过程”的概念有什么不同?难道生命不就是一场连续不断的迂回吗?

B: 你大概是对的。我一直在都处于探索的过程中，这也带来了一些弯路。我曾经因为这种改变的倾向而感到茫然，但我已经学会了信任这个过程。我正在研究的课题，或者我遭遇的经历，都在朝着一个特定的方向发展，我已经学会了遵循它将呈现的规律。要描述这个过程很难，这就是为什么我想让你做这个采访，因为你比大多数人更了解我的工作。我们的沟通引发了我与战时历史的坚定对抗。我关于这段历史的观点非常接近20世纪50年代中期出生的德国人。我一直在思考在纳粹时期德国发生的事情，这是一种的困难呼唤，但为了给我的艺术作品提供形式和背景，这是必不可少的。研究我的家庭和面对这一主题是非常具有挑战性的，同时也与我的本性相矛盾，因为我不是一个社会主义者，一个具有对抗性格的人。然而，我觉得没有办法绕开这个话题。作为一个艺术家，我必须面对这些问题，才能继续下去。这就是为什么在展览的布局中，瓦拉纳西（印度）的形象标志着我的探索的开始，又象征着它的结束。而这个巨大的，充满问题的“迂回”则介于两者之间。

老子在《道德经》中说:“明道若昧，进道若退。”

H:在这个故事里有很多章节，我认为你的家族历史在解释这段旅程中扮演了重要的角色……

B:我的父亲年纪很大，在某些方面更像一个祖父。他在50多岁的时候遇到了我的母亲，我是在他61岁的时候出生的。我母亲比他小25岁，所以在战争期间她20岁出头。在那些年里，他们有非常不同的经历。我的父母在我出生之前就分居了，在我七岁的时候就离婚了。我十九岁的时候，父亲去世了，他一直是家庭的重要象征，一个没有人想要触碰的记忆，但不知何故，它却比生命更重要。

（待续）

温馨提示：“迂回与距离”展览将于2018.5.5结束，欢迎大家前来观展

迂回与距离

艺术家：布克哈德?冯?哈德

策展人：薛丹青 

主办：在3画廊

开幕：2018年3月24日  周六 16:00

展期：2018.3.24——2018.5.5 

地点：北京市朝阳区南皋路129号塑料三厂文化创意园·在3画廊教堂空间

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