2023 O’Kids专访 | Rick Fraterman（荷兰）：“In the first place just joy”

2023年 O'Kids国际儿童艺术节

径流：艺术与教育的行动场

Runoff: Art and Education Arena

2023年O’Kids国际儿童艺术节以“径流：艺术与教育的行动场”为探讨和研究方向，探讨在社会问题面前，教育的先行意义和应对作用。以艺术展览和儿童公共教育项目为载体，继过去三年围绕“儿童友好城市”这一议题衍生出“环境科学”“技术进步”“社会治理”等话题，展开多维度的互动讨论。

原美术馆针对本次展览项目邀请到艺术家——Rick Fraterman（荷兰），通过与展览项目艺术工作者对话，给儿童艺术带来新的灵感和多样的改变，提供不同的文化观和视角，享受优质文化的艺术滋养。

R：I studied both architecture and fine art. Once I made a scale model of a cabinet and covered it with different colors of crayon. My design teacher advised me doing fine art instead. I am particularly fond of American artist Mike Kelley who made objects, textile banners, drawings, assemblage, collage and so on. Stepping into his world is just magical. You know, sometimes a specific thought for an artwork is more suitable for an architectural model or small model. I just like to make things, both in 2D and 3D. I like a challenge and not limit myself by focusing on just one specific skill. In the end I just want to create something that is skillfully well executed and looks visually stunning, at least to me, ha ha. The art of beauty! 

译：我曾经学习建筑和美术专业，有一次我做了一个柜子的比例模型并且用各种颜色的蜡笔来覆盖它，那时我的设计老师就建议我转去学习美术。我对美国艺术家迈克·凯利特别喜欢，他创作物件、纺织品横幅、绘画、组装、拼贴等等，走进他的世界实在是太神奇了。你知道，有时候对艺术品的特定想法更适合建筑模型或小模型。我只是2D和3D的东西都喜欢做。我喜欢挑战，而不是只专注一项特定的技能来限制自己。最终我只是想创作一些至少对我个人而言巧妙且视觉上令人惊叹的东西，哈哈，美的艺术！

Rick Fraterman（荷兰）-1

原：您使用互联网作为主要渠道来搜索适合创作的图像，这些图像如何在您的创作中自然地产生内容和意义？

R：I sort of consider myself as an artist without ideas or specific style. A copycat. Meow! I need an image that has enough tools to work with. If so, I start painting. The end result is not relatable to the original image anymore, because it was never about that image itself. It is way more exciting to have an idea of what the image might be turned into than actually look at that image itself. I sort of replaced it. Turned it into a unique piece. More me. Content and meaning just happens along the way. I am only interested in the visual outcome. It’s a control thing. It keeps me sane.

译：我有点认为自己是一个没有想法或特定风格的艺术家，一个模仿者。我需要一个能有足够发挥空间的图像，如果是的话我就会开始绘画。最终的结果不再跟原始的图像有联系，因为它从来都不是围绕这个图像本身的。知道图像会转变成什么比实际观察图像本身来说更令人兴奋。我差不多是将图像替换了，将它转变成独一无二的作品，更符合我。内容和含义只是在创作的过程中产生的，我仅仅对视觉上的结果感兴趣，这和控制有关，它使得我保持理智。

原：您的作品充满了当代流行文化的参考，涵盖了艺术史、电影、杂志、卡通和社交媒体平台的图像。您是如何将这些元素映射到您的作品中，创造出一个多层次、扩散的叙事？

R：I can be both enthusiastic about a Looney Tunes cartoon image and an image of a painting by Piero Della Francesca. I like to blend high and low art smoothly into one piece of work. While painting, new ideas and thoughts emerge. For example, when I was painting a brick cylinder shape for the painting “David”, I realized it needed a disco ball. To break the stiff vertical shape of the brick cylinder. This is how a more layered and diffuse narrative is created. Thinking of visual solutions by combining different elements, these elements start to work together and get meaning. Do I need to figure out for myself what the deeper meaning of all these combined elements together are? No. The way the mind works is totally strange to me. I am looking more at my paintings than the actual time painting it. Within that staring time, the mind just goes crazy. If a painting needs a disco ball or a pooping bird, go for it! 

译：我可以对兔八哥的卡通形象和皮耶罗·德拉·弗朗西斯卡的画作都充满热情。在绘画过程中，新的想法会迸发出来，我喜欢将高级和低级的艺术流畅地融入一件作品之中。举个例子，当我在画《大卫》这幅作品的砖砌圆柱体时，我意识到它需要一个迪斯科球来打破这个竖立砖砌圆柱体的僵硬感，这就是如何创造出一个更具层次感和扩散性的叙事。通过结合不同的元素来思考视觉解决方案，这些元素开始协同工作并获得意义。我需要自己弄清楚所有这些结合在一起的元素的深层含义是什么吗？不，我对大脑的工作方式完全陌生。我花在观察我的画的时间远比我实际作画的时间要多，在凝视的时间里，大脑简直疯了。如果一幅画需要一个迪斯科球或一只正在拉屎的鸟，那就去吧！

Rick Fraterman（荷兰）-2

原：您的作品中有许多与儿童相关的主题，例如玩具、儿童情境等。您对儿童艺术和儿童观众的关系有何看法？您希望年轻观众从您的作品中获得怎样的启发和体验？

R：In the first place just joy. A young audience doesn’t need to know the double layers, the diffuse narratives or the complicated art related motives. Children have a very rich imagination; they will give it their own meaning. Without knowing, they give meaning to the things they create, just because that is what the brain does automatically. At a young age, experiences are anchored for good and molded into the character of a person. Wouldn’t it be great when someone old would remember it once saw a huge mirror tower as a child and it would give a smile on this person’s face. I am using those experiences and create imagery out of it. I also try looking at grownups and see the child in their faces. Sometimes you need to dig hard when life has left so many marks, but the child is always there. 

译：首先是乐趣，年轻的观众不需要知道作品的双重含义、分散的叙事或复杂的艺术相关动机。孩子们有非常丰富的想象力；他们会赋予作品自己的意义。在不知情的情况下，他们赋予自己创造的东西意义，因为这是大脑自动完成的。在年轻的时候，经验是永久的，并塑造成一个人的性格。如果一个老人还记得小时候看到一座巨大的镜塔，脸上会露出笑容，那不是很好吗。我正在利用这些经历并从中创造意象，我也试着从成年人的脸上看到他们内心孩子的一面。当生活留下如此多的印记时，有时你需要努力挖掘，但孩子总是在那里。

原：您的作品《尖叫... 寂静》和《兜圈》等，都有一段非常有意思的作品阐述。这些文字背后的故事和情感是什么？您是如何将个人经历和情感转化为艺术作品的？

R：The idea for the painting “Screaming… silence.” is time. The time is takes before screaming turns into silence. We can think of all kind of situations where there are screams and then suddenly there is just silence. Acts of violence. Accidents. Screaming when a goal is made during a soccer game. Kids screaming and running through the alley. Within the time of screaming and silence I can make a painting. It makes me realize that the process of making is a privilege. It’s and inner screaming. When the painting is finished there is just silence. 

For the painting “Round in Circles” I was thinking about situations that seem never ending or constantly repeat itself. Circumstances where you keep making the same mistakes or when you are just bored as hell. The endless circle of disappointment and failure. These thoughts ended up with a portrait painting about a boy trying to shoot off the apple of his head with a laser beam. 

译：《尖叫…寂静》这幅画的创意是时间，尖叫变成沉默需要一段时间，我们可以想象各种充满尖叫声，然后突然就安静了的情境。暴力行为、事故、在足球比赛中进球时发出的尖叫声，孩子们尖叫着跑过小巷。在尖叫和沉默的时间里，我可以画一幅画。它让我意识到创作的过程是一种特权，是内心的尖叫，而当这幅画完成时，只剩一片寂静。

在《兜圈》这幅画中，我思考的是似乎永远不会结束或不断重复的情况，例如当你不断犯同样的错误时，或者当你无聊得要命时，失望和失败的无尽循环。这些想法最终形成了一幅肖像画，画的是一个男孩试图用激光光束射掉他的苹果。

Rick Fraterman（荷兰）-3

原：您的创作中常常使用鲜明的色彩和细节丰富的元素。您对颜色和细节在作品中的意义和表达有何思考和探索？

R：I don’t like dark and pessimistic imagery. I can’t stand it. I don’t want to walk out of a museum completely depressed. Art should be uplifting. Keep things light and bearable. We all need more color! Ask Barbie, she’ll tell you. I once visited David Hockney’s “A Bigger Picture” at the Royal Academy in London. This exhibition was a color heaven. My eyes were spinning when I walked out. As if I just walked out a candy store with bags full of candy. A great experience. When it comes to detail, I need things to be executed well and with a great eye for detail. It’s the details that make the difference. It is something I learned studying architecture. When visiting the Rietveld Schröder House by designer Gerrit Rietveld, every single detail is designed. That little extra makes the heart beat faster. 

译：我不喜欢黑暗和悲观的意象。我接受不了，我不想地走出博物馆时是完全沮丧的。艺术应该是令人振奋的、让一切轻松且可忍受的。我们都需要更多的颜色！去问问芭比，她会告诉你的。我曾经在伦敦皇家学院参观过大卫·霍克尼的《更大的画面》，那个展览是个颜色的天堂，当我走出去的时候我的眼睛在转，就好像我抱着装满糖果的袋子刚走出糖果店，很棒的体验。当谈到细节时，我需要有很好的处理能力，并对细节有敏锐的洞察力，成败在于细节，而这是我在学习建筑时就学到的东西。当参观设计师赫里特·里特维尔德的里特维尔德·施罗德住宅时，每一个细节都经过了设计，那一点点额外的东西会让心跳加快。

原：在《蓝花》和《被限定的光彩, 圣殇图合集》等装置作品中，您使用镜子和日常物品创造出新的视觉效果和形象。您对于创造出这些装置作品的动机和意图是什么？

R：I always wanted to make a large mirror tower. At that time, I was reading the book “Heinrich von Ofterdingen” by German Romanticist writer Novalis. In this unfinished novel Novalis introduced the image of the blue flower. In Romanticism the blue flower stands for desire and love. It symbolizes hope and beauty of things. Inside the dome of the mirror tower you can see the shape of a blue flower. I wanted to create a monument for beauty in which you can see yourself and the world around you. 

“Framed Luster, A Collection Of Pieta’s” started with one small object of a gold colored pedestal with a purple colored triangle shaped object on top. It is based on the sculpture “La Pietà” by Michelangelo, which has a triangle compositional shape. Considered as one of the most beautiful sculptures ever made. In total I made ten small colorful objects that celebrate the beauty of shapes and forms. For some of the objects I also used daily life items like a bracelet and a ping pong ball. In their own way these items also have their own beauty if you are willing to see it. 

译：我一直都想做一个大的镜面塔，当时我正在读德国浪漫主义作家诺瓦利斯的《海因里希·冯·奥弗丁根》一书。在这部未完成的小说中，诺瓦利斯介绍了蓝色花朵的形象。在浪漫主义中，蓝色的花朵代表欲望和爱，它象征着希望和事物的美丽。在镜塔的圆顶内，你可以看到一朵蓝色花朵的形状。我想创造一座美丽的纪念碑，在那里你可以看到自己和周围的世界。

《被限定的光彩, 圣殇图合集》从一个金色底座的小模型开始，上面有一个紫色的三角形物体。它以米开朗基罗的雕塑《圣母玛利亚》为原型，该雕塑呈三角形构图，被认为是有史以来最美丽的雕塑之一，我总共做了十件五颜六色的小模型来致敬形状和形式的美丽。对于一些模型，我还使用了日常生活用品，如手镯和乒乓球，如果你愿意看到的话，这些物品也有自己的美。

Rick Fraterman（荷兰）-4

原：您在描述作品时常使用幽默的语言和故事情节，这对于观众理解作品是否有特殊的影响？您认为幽默在艺术中的作用和价值是什么？

R：If people are convinced that art is a serious thing or should be handled as a higher form of being, I just need to laugh very loud inside. Now we are all staring at Rembrandt paintings in awe. Yes, these paintings are marvelous, but at that time they were ordered by rich people who wanted to have something nice hang on their walls. So, let’s keep art where it should belong, on eye level, in between the people, explained in normal human language, not to be taken too seriously and with a bit of humor. 

译：如果人们确信艺术是一件严肃的事情，或者应该作为一种更高的存在形式来处理，我只需要在内心开怀大笑。现在我们都敬畏地凝视着伦勃朗的画作，是的，这些画很了不起，但当时他们是有钱人订购的，他们想在墙上挂一些好看的东西。所以，让我们把艺术放在它应该属于的地方，在眼睛的水平上，在人与人之间，用正常的人类语言解释，不要太认真，反之带点幽默感。

原：在未来的创作中，您是否有新的媒介或主题想要探索？您对自己的艺术创作有何期望和目标？

R：Recently I am working on a series of works that are a combination between 3D models and paintings. I want to explore the idea of paintings as designed objects, rather than just the 2D imagery. I really try to do as many different things as possible. It keeps things fresh and interesting.It also makes a retrospective exhibition more interesting, which one day I hope to organize (dream big!). Seeing people walking through it and sort of experience it as I walked through Mike Kelley’s and David Hockney’s exhibitions and leave the exhibition with candy in their eyes. Figuratively speaking of course. Real candy in your eyes must hurt so much, ha ha. 

译：最近，我正在创作一系列结合了3D模型和绘画的作品，我想探索绘画作为设计对象的想法，而不仅局限于2D图像。我真的在尝试尽可能多的不同的事情，它能保持事物新鲜有趣。这也能让回顾展变得更加有趣，我希望有一天能组织起来（大梦想！），然后看到人们经过，就像当我穿过迈克·凯利和大卫·霍克尼的展览一样，带着满眼的糖果离开。当然这是一种形容，真的糖放在你眼睛里面一定很疼，哈哈。

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