这是现场&.对话｜董冰清：后台 - 啥空间ScheinSpace

莉莉丝 Lilith

尺寸可变 Variable dimensions

长毛绒、油性颜料、棉花、充气球、麻绳、金属

Long-pile plush, oil-based paint, cotton, inflatable balloons, hemp rope, metal

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SCHEIN 冰清你好！看展览时，第一个击中我的就是“后台”这个想法。你是怎么想到把这样一个我们熟悉又总是忽略的空间，变成整个展览的起点的？Hi Bingqing. When I first encountered the exhibition, the idea that struck me immediately was the notion of the “backstage.” How did you arrive at the idea of taking a space that is both familiar and often overlooked and turning it into the starting point of the entire exhibition?

董冰清是因为啥空间给我的第一感觉，当时我脑子里冒出的是一种对隐秘又开放结构的熟悉感。My initial impression of the space was a sense of familiarity with a structure that felt both concealed and open at the same time.

“后台”街景图，2025

SCHEIN 走进这个近似透明的空间，感觉特别奇妙。原本私密的后台被放在“橱窗”里展示。在设计时，你是希望通过这种“暴露”，带给路过的人和专门来看展的观众怎样不同的感受？Entering this almost transparent space feels quite unusual. The backstage—normally a private area—is placed inside what resembles a “display window.” When designing the exhibition, did you intend this kind of “exposure” to produce different experiences for passersby and for visitors who come specifically to see the show?

董冰清可能也是因为我自己一直在试图和“暴露”这件事情和解，所以甚至和空间产生了一种情绪上的共鸣。路过的人透过窗口会产生一种窥视欲，而走入这个空间则是踏破安全边界的行为，一般来说我们都会将从封闭的安全屋走向开放的外部称为“走出舒适区”，但这类空间则是相反的，人们需要克服一种“闯入”的焦躁和不安感才能进入，这种带有警惕和好奇的复杂感受另我着迷。Perhaps because I have long been trying to reconcile myself with the idea of “exposure,” I found an emotional resonance with the space itself. People passing by the window may experience a kind of voyeuristic impulse, while stepping into the space becomes an act of crossing a boundary of safety. Generally, when people move from an enclosed and secure environment into the open outside, we describe it as “stepping out of one’s comfort zone.” But this kind of space works in the opposite way: one has to overcome a sense of anxiety and unease associated with “intruding” in order to enter. This complex mixture of vigilance and curiosity fascinates me.

SCHEIN 这次展览中的作品，像是系列作品的延伸，是如何与“后台”这个概念具体对话的？你是先有了“后台”的想法，再创作作品，还是作品本身就指向了这个方向？The works in this exhibition feel like an extension of a larger series. How do they specifically enter into dialogue with the concept of the “backstage”? Did the idea of the backstage come first, followed by the works, or did the works themselves already point in this direction?

董冰清因为我在啥空间的这件作品也是如此的一种气质，介于“暴露”和“躲藏”之间。后台作为一个休憩、躲藏、准备的栖身之所，是为上台前崭露自己的前站。除了艺术家之外，我的另一个身份是舞台美术导演，后台是我非常熟悉的一个供艺人休息的空间，隔着一堵墙就是舞台，这种复杂的紧张感时常让我感到不安。The work I presented in the space already possessed this kind of temperament—situated somewhere between “exposure” and “concealment.” Backstage is a place for rest, hiding, and preparation; it is a temporary refuge before stepping onto the stage to reveal oneself. In addition to being an artist, I also work as a stage art director. Backstage is therefore a very familiar environment for me—a space where performers rest, separated from the stage by only a single wall. That sense of proximity often creates a complex tension that makes me feel uneasy.

《莉莉丝》作品细节

拍摄：孙天辰

SCHEIN 理解你说的这种对照的矛盾感，我觉得很有趣的一点是，你说观众被置于一个“等待被观看”的位置。这让我看展时多了一种微妙的自我觉察。你是如何通过布展，来轻轻地引导观众产生这种感受的？I understand the contradictory tension you’re describing, and I find it particularly interesting that you place the viewer in a position of “waiting to be seen.” When I was looking at the exhibition, it created a subtle form of self-awareness. How did you use the exhibition design to gently guide the audience toward this experience?

董冰清我将空间的设置做了一个反向的逻辑，啥空间由沿街透明玻璃窗的小展厅和内部私密的内展厅组成，观众在进入空间时，我先是将小展厅布置成了一个有穿衣镜、休息座椅、通告条的“后台”空间，再往里走，内展厅代表着舞台，装置也在其中呈现，而内展厅的墙则代表着观众的位置。这意味着观众随着动线像艺人一样从后台走上了舞台，形成了一种进入内部进行探索和走上舞台进行展示的一个重叠结构。I reversed the spatial logic. The space consists of a small exhibition room with a transparent glass window facing the street and a more private inner gallery. When audiences enter, the small front gallery is arranged as a “backstage” area—with a dressing mirror, seating, and notice boards. Moving further inside, the inner gallery represents the stage, where the installation is presented. Meanwhile, the walls of the inner gallery stand in for the position of the audience. This means that as visitors follow the circulation route, they move like performers—from backstage onto the stage. It creates an overlapping structure in which entering the interior becomes an act of exploration while simultaneously resembling the act of stepping onto a stage to be presented.

“后台”展览现场，2025

拍摄：孙天辰

SCHEIN 我们继续聊聊你之前的作品，《不要和宝拉说话》里对权力关系的探讨，似乎在这次以“空间”为主题的展览中得到了延续和转化。是否对你而言，“后台”本身也蕴含着一种控制与观看的权力结构？Let’s talk about your earlier work Don’t Talk to Paula, where you explored power relations. It seems that this concern continues and transforms in this exhibition, which focuses on space. For you, does the backstage itself contain a structure of power related to control and spectatorship?

董冰清对的，观看和被观看就是一组权力可以相互置换的结构，主动、被动在其中主客体任意切换。Yes. To watch and to be watched forms a structure of power that can be exchanged. Within it, activity and passivity, subject and object, can shift positions at any moment.

SCHEIN 我特别喜欢“城市的快速节奏与作品的心理节奏在窗口处相遇”这个描述。这种公共与私密、快速与慢速的碰撞，是你刻意寻求的吗？它有没有带来一些你意料之外的现场反应？I particularly like your description that “the rapid rhythm of the city and the psychological rhythm of the work meet at the window.” Was this collision between the public and the private, the fast and the slow, something you deliberately sought? Did it produce any unexpected responses on site?

董冰清也不算是刻意寻求，因为我们就置身其中，这是对当代城市居民再熟悉不过的日常，只是艺术家何如去捕捉、感受和思考，再消化和转化的问题。It wasn’t something I deliberately pursued, because we already live within this condition. It is an everyday experience that contemporary urban residents know very well. The question is simply how an artist captures it, senses it, reflects upon it, and then digests and transforms it.

“后台”内展厅，2025

拍摄：孙天辰

SCHEIN 把创作的阴影、犹疑这些通常藏在幕后的部分直接展示出来，需要很大的勇气。这个过程中，你个人有感到不适或挑战吗？还是说，这也是一种自我梳理和解放的方式？Bringing the shadows and hesitations of artistic creation—things usually hidden behind the curtain—directly into view requires a great deal of courage. Did you personally feel discomfort or challenge in this process? Or was it also a form of self-reflection and liberation?

董冰清是的，非常不适，但我依然控制不住地去进行这样的行为和创作。Yes, it was extremely uncomfortable. Yet I still find myself unable to stop engaging in this kind of action and creation.

SCHEIN 如果我们再往深处想，“后台”似乎不只是戏剧或艺术的概念，似乎也隐喻着我们社会运行、甚至每个人内心世界中，那些支撑着“前台表演”的、不愿示人的复杂结构。你希望这个展览能引发观众在这方面的联想吗？If we push the idea further, the “backstage” seems to be more than just a theatrical or artistic concept. It could also be a metaphor for the hidden structures that support the “front-stage performance” of society, or even of our inner lives—structures we prefer not to reveal. Do you hope the exhibition might trigger these kinds of associations for viewers?

董冰清完全正确，我们都戴着一个人格面具，作为一种生存法则。这甚至是一个自然而然的事情，而我在做的或许是试图跟这个行为和解。Exactly. We all wear a kind of persona mask as a rule for survival. In many ways this is completely natural, and what I might be doing is simply trying to reconcile myself with that behavior.

《莉莉丝》作品细节

拍摄：孙天辰

SCHEIN 经过这次将“后台”彻底推到前台的实践，对你的艺术创作思考产生了怎样的影响？你是否会继续挖掘这种“揭示隐藏结构”的路径？对于你接下来的“舞台”，我们可以有什么样的期待呢？After this practice of bringing the backstage entirely to the front, how has it influenced your thinking about artistic practice? Will you continue to explore this path of revealing hidden structures? What might we expect from your next “stage”?

董冰清我是在不断地进行这样的创作和展示的过程中，逐渐梳理自身内部、认清外部结构，所以创作对我来说是生存的方式。这次啥空间的作品是属于我的系列作品“宝拉”的一部分，这个系列包含了影像、绘画、雕塑以及现场的演出，展示空间作为一种静态的舞台，而演出空间作为动态的舞台，我都将逐渐呈现给大家，谢谢！Through the continuous process of creating and presenting works like this, I gradually sort through my own inner structures and come to recognize the external ones. For me, creation is a way of survival. The work presented in this space is part of my ongoing series Paula, which includes video, painting, sculpture, and live performance. Exhibition spaces function as a kind of static stage, while performance spaces are dynamic stages. Both will gradually be presented to the public. Thank you.

开幕演出 Performance Shibari ：侧幕 Wings

Rigger：角虫屋蛛蛛 Tactoo Spider

Bunny：顾声 Shengsheng

拍摄：张皓言

《莉莉丝》与董冰清，2025

拍摄：张皓言